When to offer aid to the unprepared

Carter Murphy - October 24, 2020

Scenarios

Not everyone has prepping as a hobby or a way of life. Not many have gone through a major disaster or trial in their lifetime that would encourage them to be prepared. But those disasters do happen, and if it does, what is your thought process behind offering aid, help, and assistance to others?

It will greatly depend on the situation, where your preps are at the time, and many other contributing factors, but lets have a discussion of some possible scenarios.

Here are some arguments for giving aid: I believe that most people would like to offer assistance to others and help when they can. This can help grow and strengthen your prepping community and many hands makes light work.

Here are some arguments against giving aid: Your house gets to be known as the new hand-out place. Once you give help to one person, they tell others and you have many people on your doorstep. You become a target because you have supplies and resources when others do not.

Another user on here, Matt Black, made a really great forum post about making Mercy Bags for the unprepared. I think this is a great idea and my family is going to make some to help out others.

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I do believe in offering aid to the unprepared but the timing of that is the tricky part.  In my case, I will not offer aid unless we are in a major, SHTF crisis… not before.  And I will wait a week or more before doing so.

I live on a 20 acre homestead on a rural, dead end lane, about a mile off a county hwy headed to nowhere.  There are around 10 famlies on our lane, with two of them being farmers with nice sized cattle herds.  If a crisis were to hit, first thing I would do is make contact with the two farmers and work out an arrangement where I can offer them stored food and help guarding their herds.  They of course have cows in return.   BTW, we are good friends.  Then, after a week or two, once we know which neighbors are still around, I would suggest adding the other famlies on the lane to the group.  I’m sure they would have less to offer but I know three of those famlies work in the healthcare industry… two nurses and a dentist.

I know many preppers fear hordes of city folk attacking, and I too see that as a threat… depending on how far out you are.  I do believe the suburbs will very quickly set up barriers to stop the influx of people escaping the city.  But, IMO a prepper’s greatest threat is from hungry neighbors.  You think they are gonna starve quietly while you eat?  You can’t shoot them, maybe as you would some horde.  They have a right to be out & about, which makes them a constant threat.

So thru the years, I’ve stocked large amounts of food.  I also stock huge amounts of garden seed.  Matter of fact, just today I put up a 6 gallon pail full of the three sisters… corn seed, pole bean seed & winter squash seed.  I also added collard seeds and I have hundreds of thousands of amaranth seed in storage.  I’m at the point that even if a crisis were to hit at the worst time, the end of the growing season, that all on our lane could survive until crops were planted the next year.  

I just don’t believe in forming a group before a crisis.  I find many people just too unreliable and once you tell people what you have, it will spread.  Then other people will invite themselves and at that point, you are screwed.  So I keep quiet and hope & pray I never need to use my stores.  But they are there when needed and will be used to offer aid to others.

 

Something I have been wanting to do is to create my own little prepping community. Find like minded individuals who will gather together and help each other out if a disaster was to hit. That is one of the reasons I got into ham radio, to meet other preppers who I could talk to about this kind of stuff. 

Family is a natural default prepping community for many. You care for and love them and want them all to survive. You probably would be more willing to help out your sister’s family than a random stranger. 

By creating a prepping community or network, you can pool resources, share skills, and have strength in numbers.

 

I’ve never figured out how to create a prepping community, without losing the aspect that I feel is crucial to surviving a crisis… stealth.  IMO, it is just too dangerous to let others know you prepare & that you have food & whatever for an emergency.  These others might stay quiet during good times, but during a crisis, surely they will tell others, such as their friends & family… who will tell their friends & family & so on.

Another aspect of groups is that 90% of the work is normally done by 10% of the people.  Check out how most churches operate & you will know what I mean.  Then, what comes of members who drop out or are removed from the group?  They know who you are & what you have.  What if, during the crisis, they group with other desperate folks to come take from you?

I most certainly agree the best way to survive a crisis is by forming small communities.  I just don’t know how to safely do so prior to the crisis.

 

I’m really on the fence with this.  I consider myself a relatively virtuous and compassionate person, but in a SHTF situation, my family is going to be my only concern.   I don’t worry about gangs of marauders, it’s the friendly neighbors in my community.  Hunger and especially their children’s hunger will create dangerous and desperate people who will do anything to get your food/supplies.  If you give them a care-package, you can expect them to return to take what they want.

I’ve been preppng for years.  I don’t have a lot of money, but bought over the years: food, supplies, meds, books, canning equipment, lots of propane, seeds, and guns to protect it.  I’ve tried to get others involved (without giving too much information), but there’s been no interest. There are so many benefits of having a group, but it’s really difficult to establish until things get really bad and then it’s going to be too late.

Over the years, I’ve warned and advised many friends to start prepping. If they refuse (and all have) to take precautions, it’s on them and I owe them nothing.  I’m sorry if this makes me sound bad, but there’s lots of wisdom in the Ant and Grasshopper fable.

 

@ Carter: *hat tip* Thanks for the mention. 🤠

@ Winston: I totally get it. It really is one of those iffy things. And you make some interesting points, especially the bit about suddenly being known as the “hand out” place. I view my prepping as a series of potential opportunities, each with their own outcomes. 

@ ALL: Here are a few additional things to consider:

• – a mercy bag truly is an act of mercy
• – a mercy bag doesn’t have to be given face-to-face. anonymity is always an option!
• – a mercy bag has the potential to lead to alliances that might not otherwise happen, even if for a moment
• – a mercy bag (failing all else), could be used as a distration to make a quick getaway

@ Redneck: You and I are a lot alike in our thinking. I have a very strong preference for unobtrusivness. Being a part of a community is something that takes time and a lot of trust, which (time) is a luxury we might not have right now -but who knows.

Trust permeates every aspect of everyday life. Think about it. When I’m driving down the highway, I’m trusting that the person driving in the other direction isn’t going to intentionally steer themselves into a head-on. When I see the signal to cross the street, I look both ways, but I still trust that I won’t get intentionally run over. I put an ATM card into the atm machine because you trust that you’ll get it back. At the range, I trust that someone isn’t going to go on a shooting spree. I trust that, when I board a plane, it won’t just fall out of the sky (or that the pilot isn’t blitzed out of their skull). The list goes on.

Society runs on trust.

The question is, in SHTF situation, what happens to trust? Does it disappear completely? Who can say?

What trust you might have in a prepper community needs to be as-solid or better because (as you mentioned) you can’t afford to have that trust abused or misused in times of need.

So, in that regard, your best prep is to guard against such abuses of trust.

 

Good topic. I’ve been mulling over this same issue but have yet to come to a decent conclusion on what to do and when.

We live on a homestead/small farm so it is very obvious that we have potential food sources. However, few people really appreciate just how little food a small hobby farm makes. I think people are so used to confined animal operations cranking out massive quantities of food, we don’t realize that a small flock of chickens, a couple pigs, and a summer garden can’t fully feed a single family year round, never mind extended family, friends, or neighbors in need.
I want to be able to help others but the reality is the size of our operation is simply not large enough to do much more than support my own family at best. I did the math and there are about 10 close family/friend groups that I would want to help and there is no way I can even provide meaningful ongoing support to one other family, let alone all of them 🙁

 

I’d suggest storing more seed than you would need for your own family.  If you can’t assist these extra people with food then maybe helping them get started with growing their own food would help.  The discussion about growing amaranth is an example in how a tremendous amount of food can be grown very cheaply & very easily.  You can get over a half million amaranth seed for around $50.

Then, if possible maybe you can slowly add to your food storage.  Over a few years time you will see that you could then offer food as well as seed.  That is what I did on my homestead.  I can remember clearly as I added additional food to my stores saying, “That is one more person I can feed”.

 

I love the idea of providing seeds for others! It seems much more manageable than somehow finding a way to provide everyone with eggs and chicken. How does amaranth do in cold zones (4-5)? Even if it doesn’t tolerate cold well, due to its aggressive growth, I could still experiment next year and just see how it does up here June-Sept.

 

Here is another aspect of providing garden seed.  Since garden seed has a much shorter shelf life than most stored food (ie rice & beans in mylar), one needs to constantly add new seed to their stores.  I add at least a 6 gallon pail worth each year.  That means your seed that is 5 years old is getting where it will not be as viable.  Not worthless but not as good a germination rate.  Well this older seed would be good to hand out to others in need.

I think that area would be too cool to expect a great seed crop but surely you have a long enough warm spell for the plants to grow & provide leaves for you.  Many folks grow amaranth just for micro greens where the harvest when just a few inches tall.

 

natural disaster or storm >>, of course, you do whatever you can do to help your neighbors and community – with ONE huge reminder >>> DON”T BREAK YOUR OPSEC ….

any other SHTF – you need to think about your Top Priority >>> your OWN family ….

You have extra to share? >>> How exactly did you ascertain & determine that? – the authorities are saying SHTF recovery is a certain 3 months – you have 6 months total and can help another unprepared family totally or percentage that 3 months out among multi-families ….

All well & good !!! – righteous plan – except the recovery didn’t come – tangent SHTFs occurred and it’s now almost an unpredictable recovery timetable ….

and – you got almost impossibly lucky – that family you shared kept OPSEC with you and didn’t reveal your well-laid larder >>> they did the impossible – watched their 100s of extended family members and friends go hungry – didn’t start a mob rush to your home or get it raided by an armed gang …. 

in a starving situation – you’ll be handing out the equal to gold bars or scattering $1,000 bills to the wind >>> at least try to understand human nature …

face facts – you can’t help everyone – and helping anyone without breaking OPSEC and revealing your prepper pat hand is almost impossible ….

 

IMO, the best way to keep OPSEC is to wait until the crisis is full blown before helping others.  If folks are still able to drive around… it is too early.  

Who knows when there will be help or a recovery?  Worst case situation is there isn’t either.  That is why if you prep for a long term event, becoming self sufficient is critical.  Group security, garden seed & gardening knowhow are as critical as stored food.

 

??? – OK if you live 3 days of walking away from somebody – but who does? 

a village is 1500-3000 people >>> what is a “no drive” situation going to do for you? – you couldn’t handle a starving neighborhood of a couple hundred – lucky you handle that next door guy ….

 

So your location is critical.  You don’t want to be on the route to somewhere.  Hungry, walking people will be walking to somewhere.  They will have a plan.  They will walk to the next big town or location they have read about or seen on TV.  They will not just blindly head down some rural road, especially once they find out the rural folks are no better prepared than they are.   I feel blessed in that my location is not on the route to any such place.  Now go the other way on our highway, about an hours drive, and that is different.

But if it came down to fighting, and that is the last thing I want to do, I would be much more confident if a small group was defending our area… than just me.

 

My only duty is to see that me and mine survive NOT to someone who couldnt be bothered or thinks preppers are paranoid.

start feeding others and pretty soon you’ll have nothing and will be starving yourself, not me brother!

 

I can tell by your user name that you are a loner.  Problem is, throughout history, humans have survived because they form communities.  A loner can’t stay alert or awake 24 hours a day.  A loner can’t garden & provide security at the same time.

My biggest issue with loner types is that they think they can stay fed, while their neighbors starve.  Sorry, but that is simply not realistic.  Hungry people are dangerous people.  So unless you have a way to stay completely hidden from all others, you are in for a rude awakening.  Many preppers have a Rambo complex, thinking if they are well enough armed, they can fight off anyone or any group.  Let me tell you something, the last thing you want to be doing is fighting.

 

in the past “communities” have been little more than extended families and will be again.

any more than that will not be possible until a long time past collapse, a very long time.

talking of communities is all very noble but it wont happen not in the ensuing panic once the event become apparent. human nature will see to that, we have seen enough events around the world to know that is true.

any talk of refugees or the horde is a non starter, most modern people wont get very far they will lack the resourc.es or the fitness

 

Yes, you bring up valid concerns for building a community post SHTF.  But what is your plan for staying lone wolf?  Do you not have just as many concerns?  Staying hidden for months from desperate people, often people you know well, will be almost impossible.  Even if you are perfect, what happens when these folk come into your home thinking it is abandoned.  You gonna shoot a kid?  No matter what, your stealth cover is blown.  How you gonna grow or collect food without being seen?  You have dogs?  You have kids?  Who provides security while you sleep?

I could go on & on.  Point is, lone wolves will have just as many issues in surviving as people in a group.  Maybe more.  Seems like some preppers see the loan wolf as some panacea.  I just don’t think so.  I think any survival strategy will face its own issues.

 

What desperate people?most will be dead within a month when the JIT delivery system shuts down and the lights go off, until that happens they arent going to do anything, people cannot live for long without food, yes they can steal but that will get them dead sooner and any food they get isnt going to last long, its only delaying the inevitable.

I dont live in the US, over here the population is smaller and mainly confined to the big cities where the collapse will be felt sooner and faster.

I live in a small population area(not a city).

 

So you think everyone will die off in the first month?  I disagree, however lets say that is true.  How does a lone wolf survive for a month?  You don’t think there will be desperate people then?  Do you have neighbors?  Local friends? Dogs? Kids?

I’ve stated for a long time your biggest threat in such a crisis is not from some invading horde from the big city, but from hungry neighbors.  I too live in a small population area but that doesn’t negate the fact that my deer hunting neighbors would be my major threat if they were hungry.

My plan is to greatly remove that threat by sharing resources & working together.  Yes, there will be issues.  But what is your plan?

 

my name is lonewolf because I do not trust other people, this is nothing new it comes of personal experience over a lifetime of people not respecting others.

by sharing resources we only let others know we have more than they do and the results are obvious.

I’ve spent a lifetime of NOT relying on other people, the whole point of prepping is to be self sufficient and self reliant (the emphasis being on the SELF) I was brought up to stand on my own 2 feet .

post collapse will be like nothing any of us have experienced before and we will have to do everything differently, the new normal will be nothing like the normal that went before, the only way we will survive is by being resolute, strong and that may mean hardening our hearts to the situation of others, sympathy could get us killed if we pick the wrong person.

 

Notice how you never answer my questions?  Sounds like your only plan is to be resolute & strong.  Good luck!

 

better than being weak and compliant.

 

I’ve spent a lifetime being different/alternative, not going with the herd, not ticking the box, dont expect me to change now.

 

Good luck to you, sir.

 

you can have any social situation you want during normal times – that’s your biz …

come serious SHTF times with starving potential for real >>>> anybody that wants to survive better get to be “Lonewolf” pretty damn quik ….

there’s going to be an interim early period that you’ll be best continuing your social game with the neighborhood & community <<< WHILE MAINTAINING OPSEC >>> – you’ll be needing others to combat the utter crap that is going to come to the surface FAST – one being the obvious crap that spent last year burning down Portland. Seattle and Minneapolis and rioting in every other place ….

how you’re going to contend with the impending “dying off period” – that’s going to be the possibly determining factor whether you & yours survive or die with everyone else – if you think you’ll be able to do more than complicate your own situation – I wish you well in your survival …. 

 

Once again, you really think a lone wolf is gonna be left alone, in his prepper bliss, while your friends & neighbors die of starvation?  In all my years on forums, I’ve never once heard of a plan for dealing with these folks… other than Rambo junk.

As opposed to ignoring the major threat of starving neighbors, I decided to come up with a plan.  Is there any guarantee it would work?  Of course not.  But at least I’m trying to figure out how to survive in the real world after a collapse of society.  The real world would be the kids next door coming over for help.  The real world is their father, taking you out with his dear rifle for not helping.  Simply sticking your head in a hole & hoping to play lone wolf is not a plan, IMO.

I really want to hear a plan for staying lone wolf.

 

Hi Carter!

Thank you for starting this discussion! Reading all the replies has been thought-provoking.

For me, prepping is about taking care of my community. I’ve had a reputation for being the person with pencils/bandages/whatever since I was a kid. Sometimes that opens up a conversation on preparedness, but mostly it’s just a way I can help my chronically optimistic friends and family out. Like Redneck said, there’s usually 10% of people doing 90% of the work in churches, but we keep showing up to move those horrible, horrible chairs every week because we really love our community.

I understand people’s concerns about becoming targets or having resources depleted, but I’m just not interested in being the last woman standing or surviving because I turned someone away. I see it as my responsibility to love and care for people whenever I can, and it would be even more important to do so when SHTF than it is day to day.

From a selfish standpoint, stockpiled goods will run out anyway. I’d rather have a larger group of people working together to forage in a long-term disaster than a smaller group that put foraging off a few weeks but ends up doing it anyway.

The risk of being targeted is worth giving aid to me, but honestly, it would be dumb to rob me when I’d just hand the food out willingly. Also, I’ll be dead in a hundred years anyway, so I might as well help people while I’m here even if it’s higher risk.

That said, no judgement for people with other priorities! We all have different values and philosophies that will impact our prepping. It’s just good to be honest with yourself about what they are before you’re put in a crisis situation and have to make snap judgements.

The only time I wouldn’t help someone is if I would be putting myself in danger doing so. If a guy asks for help with his car “over there”, I’m not going with him. 

 

It might be interesting to live through a “practice” emergency, to see what your “community” thinks about helping YOU, though that may not be the best thing to model one’s own behavior after.  We’ve lived through a couple of “interesting” scenarios in the last couple of years. We live in an area of various acreages, the nearest being 1-10 acres.

We all pretty much live in indifference toward our neighbors.  In the aforementioned scenarios, none of the nearest neighbors, with whom we’re acquainted – even friends –  checked on anybody.  It was every man for himself. Granted, these were not situations that really bring the best – or the worst – out in some people.  But it is in keeping with the local sense of community – there is none.

I’m sure the indifference of others would probably color our initial decisions about giving aid,  and we may talk tough, but in the end, I rather doubt we have the stomach to eat warm food while others are freezing or dying.  I’ve showered lots of resources on animals that have been hit by cars.  Compassion isn’t something most individuals have a lot of control over. Neither is the will to survive.

 

Compassion will get a lot of people killed post collapse.

we cannot, with the best will in the world, feed everyone who we come across.

the world is already overpopulated and any collapse will cause a reduction in population numbers, only those that have the determination to survive will survive, many will not, we cant feed them all.

 

I don’t believe anyone stated they wanted to feed everyone they come across or feed them all.  That is taking this discussion to the far extreme.  What many hope to do, or would consider doing, is to provide aid to some of the unprepared.  That might be to family members or friends.  That might be to neighbors.  And the reasons will be as varied as the number of folks here.  Compassion will be a reason for some.  For me, it has more to do with limiting risks associated with starving neighbors and building a small community for joint security.

IMO, this is a key area of discussion for preppers.  IMO, it is one area most preppers ignore.  They give lots of thought on how much resources to keep in storage.  They give less thoughts of how to protect those resources during the crisis.  Just saying you will go lone wolf is not a plan, but for many, that is what they will tell you.  They never tell you how they will deal with your starving 12 year old neighbor asking for help or how they will protect themselves from the deer hunting neighbors.

Once again, no matter if you want to provide aid to the unprepared or you wish to go lone wolf, you best have a plan on being successful.  Your plan best address how to deal with starving friends & neighbors.  Otherwise, you have no plan and are living in a dream world.  In a crisis where most are starving to death, you will not be left alone.

 

this will mostly be a problem for the big cities where welfare is a way of life.

I do not believe in the horde theory so loved of fiction writers and hollywood producers.

neighbours arent much of a problem out here in the rural areas.

 

Big cities may get help resources first, as they have hospitals, businesses, gov’t, infrastructure. Granted, that all may collapse in such a way that it would take years to fix. But if the issue was not a long collapse, major resources may head to the cities first and rural areas later. How many rural hospitals no longer exist? People need to get air lifted to the cities often times. There may be also be more rural town people dependent on welfare than in big cities, much like the Opioid crisis has damaged many a small town. Just like white people getting food from closed grocery stores (after a natural disaster like a hurricane) are ‘foraging’ for food while black people doing the exact same thing are called ‘looters’ and risk getting shot or judged differently. I myself worry about closed rural communities with armed fascist militias in them right now. 

Mutual Aid groups in communities are cropping up. Or maybe they already existed and this is just a new name for it. Anyway, this is something to look into. Someone could always keep their larder locked but join a Mutual Aid group and add to the community that way (donations, volunteering, driving, etc.). I’ve heard some Preppers discuss Community Prepping, so one person may have one special skill and focus on that while others contribute in other ways. The It Takes a Village concept. It probably depends on where you live, who you can trust, and other issues. 

City and Country need each other. If a massive collapse happens that creates refugee crises from people escaping cities, then people will have to deal with that trauma. With Climate Change, who knows if people in the woods might end up fleeing due to constant forest fires, mudslides and flooding, or poor soil/water situations. Cities, towns, and farms have always existed. If things collapse, eventually, they’ll naturally reform into these patterns again. It’s best to appreciate what each area has to offer society. 

 

This pandemic has brought this topic into focus for me.

The street I live in is a typical urban street, fairly quiet with a mix of families, couples and a couple of HMO’s, most of us are on nodding acquaintance with each other. 

When the first lockdown was announced, we quickly organised ourselves and those who were able got extra shopping in for those who were more vulnerable. Some did medication drops and others offered help with care and cooking. I shopped for an elderly neighbour and made the odd cake, pie etc. In return, I also received baked goods. We even set up a swap shop once the veg gardens started producing. 

I also like the idea of comfort packages and would readily make a few up for my neighbours, after all most of them have proven to be capable closet preppers (although I wouldn’t dare to call them that, they’re just normal people, according to them) and we all gained something from the joint experience. I found out a lady down the road knows how to preserve by fermentation and she has shown me how to make sauerkraut and dill pickles. In return I have shared my jam and marmalade experiences with her. It’s a win-win. I also noticed who the givers and takers are in this little community and I’m quite sure the other givers have too. The takers will be given a chance to change, or be excluded. 

Most importantly I now know who I can and cannot rely on. 

So my own thoughts are to help those who help themselves or me. I’d be happy to provide items that encourage independence, self reliance and that would further the community. 

If as a lone wolf you think the worst of your neighbours, they probably think the same of you and I’m quite sure in a bad situation, they would not think twice about overrunning your house in search of supplies and as a lone wolf, you are going to need eyes in the back of your head 24/7. 

A rented home on a social housing estate is no place to be when the lights go off , unless you intend to leave and try to live off the land playing hide and seek with other people. 

 

How were you able to go from nodding acquaintances to an organized lockdown super hero group?

I would really like to know, because our neighborhood is on nodding terms, but I would like to know how to rally them together if ever needed.

 

Jay, I’ll tell you how we got to the next stage.  The key is simple kindness & unexpected gifts.  My wife & I share our bounty from the orchard & garden with our neighbors.  My wife continues this with her mom’s neighbors up in Memphis.  It is amazing what a little bit of garden veggies will do to near strangers.  Throw in some fresh made canned jams & jellies and you now are friends & will talk to each other.

Seems most people want to return the favor too, as friend are oft to do.  Just 2 days ago a neighbor called & asked for me to meet him out front.  He brought over some venison summer sausage he had in his freezer, from last fall.  That will be my dinner tonight.

I guess this is similar to what folks used to do, in bringing maybe some fresh baked goodies to new neighbors.  Food as gifts is a great way to break the ice, especially if you do it more than once.  It is easy now to start a conversation as they ask about our garden & orchards.  Most people, even folks in the country, don’t grow their own fruits & veggies and have no idea what real food tastes like.  They really appreciate the gifts.

I think the beauty of garden produce as a gift is that folks realize it is from our excess & we didn’t spend any money on the gift.  I think that puts them at ease & helps them understand a purchased gift in return is not needed.

 

Amen to kindness and gifts. It happens so rarely that I always think of the kindness and thought that went into those neighbors who have brought us over some cookies.

I remember making a loaf of fresh bread for one of our neighbors and we went from nodding to small chit chat every time we saw each other.

 

There you go!  IMO, that is the answer.

And once again, a loaf of bread is obviously homemade and not of great expense.  To me it is important a gift doesn’t make the recipient feel bad.  You just want them to feel noticed.

My wife cans a tremendous amount of our fruits & berries.  We actually eat a tiny fraction of her jams & jellies.  But those little half pint jars make wonderful gifts all thru the year.

 

Nothing is as welcoming and comforting than a loaf of homemade bread. Except maybe some with some homemade butter and jam as well.

Plus, for those who have never made bread before, it is very impressive. But little do they know that it was cheap and easy to make in my bread maker.

 

It was quite simple really, I got chatting to my nextdoor neighbour about doing  a bit of shopping for her if needed as she has kidney problems and their son was 6 months old. She said someone from up the road had already been in to see her and within 24 hrs word had got round that we were going to look after each other. Which we did. No song and dance and we’re certainly no supergroup, just looking out for each other. I think it used to be called being neighbourly. 🙂

It did help that this area is a very friendly place and it’s a small street.

It has meant we’re more friendly now and I still do a bit of shopping for the elderly neighbour if she needs it. My son was round there a few weeks ago setting up her new mobile phone for her because her family are a few hundred miles away and were unable to get down to see her. If the will is there it’s an easy thing to do, someone just needs to start it off. It could be you? 

The veg swap box was a particular success and the ones who don’t grow left something else. One of the young men from the HMO left an IOU for an hour’s work doing whatever you wanted doing. I think he took a couple of dogs for a walk. 

 

That’s nice that many of you were aware of the situation and limits of your neighbors and your first reaction was to step in and help. 

 

Good morning Erika,

Had missed this post.

It’s already worked out, tested and with an experience record.

“Big cities” won’t be first to get help and resources. NYC has ~ 50,000 people living alone in illegal rooms of houses.  There were discussions for these people to evacuate. This will not be happening.

First priority is national defense critical facilities such as submarine bases. Next is critical facilities and the related infrastructure. One example is navigatable waterways. Another is official emergency relocation centers. One of a few of these redundant centers is for the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. Redundancy is “just in case” a road is closed from weather emergency, terrorist activity, … 

It’s not a geographic / topographic matter. Some rural areas get priority. If, for example, they have critical infrastructure.  Grid east of Redneck’s place is the new and ready for first time use waterway named “Tenn Tom”. It’s an alternate route midwest to Gulf coast in case Mississippi River is closed.

All those armed fascist militias will learn, forsthand, what the Havana Syndrome is about. We are ready for them.

I’ve posted here at TP.com some intro to the DEFCONs and COGCONs.

Whatever preparations we preppers do, there are those in government service (many (mostly ?!) contractors ready to keep the nation going. The fruited plain isn’t going away that easily.

Don’t mean to get too critical and negative.  This stuff is “heavy” and takes decades to learn about if working in the arena. Others will still have no idea.

Cities and Counties do not need each other. Counties – many exceptions due historical reasons – are just too small a unit to have the economies of scale needed. Most of their tax money is pre-allocated to the school budget.  It’s really disguised unemployment.  The kids are not employable unless homeschooled or in one of those “gifted” schools. Much politics involved but not for here at TP.

As one can guess, I still work this stuff. 

The field is vast. “Nothing vast enters the human mind without a curse” Socrates.

 

don’t know about your area – but – the “rural” areas aren’t the same as they were even a decade ago …

got allllll kinds of people on acreage that are nothing but suburban sheeple that got a pile of $$$$ for their previous home and bought into the “farm life” – they can’t even get out of their 2 car garage on a snowy day …

the cheap expanse of piped natural gas has sprouted mini subdivisions all over – 15-20 houses out in the middle of the corn/bean fields – all new owners coming from a “7/11 convenience store on every corner” background …

wouldn’t want to be down the road from these 50-60+ people that are now rural bound without a live chicken among the bunch …

 

Illini Warrior – Just a friendly note that these convos go better without labels like “sheeple” that distract from the topic or signal as culture-war insults (eg. libtards and so on). Thanks 🙂

 

you’re a staff member and don’t know that “sheeple” is a totally accepted prepper web term for the unprepared ….

please let me what your other “hand slapping” terms you have a problem with – I’ll then decide whether to keep my membership …

been thru with other prepper websites that died & faded away because of censorship from parochial school teacher types wielding their own PERSONAL wooden ruler ….

 

Hey, hear me out. Firstly, thank you for years ago sharing some of my first articles on TP, it helped us grow! 

We know that for some people it’s not a derogatory word, and that it is for others. There’s plenty of other words that’s happened to. It’s just a flaw in language. So whatever the intention, words like that can distract from the goal of focusing on preparedness for a wide range of people, because it can gatekeep / fuel the vibe (that you see in other communities) of culture-war bullshit.

I don’t want to be the word nanny, trust me. But notice that we didn’t make a big thing of it, edit it out, hide your whole comment, scold you, etc. We left a polite comment saying “hey, welcome, this is the vibe around here — here’s how to not get people distracted from your otherwise valid point about fish-out-of-water city folk and instead make it helpful to those very same people.”

If that’s not your jam, no worries, sincerely wish you luck finding your tribe elsewhere.

p.s. If the only way to prevent TP from “dying and fading away” is turning it into the same Fox News vs. MSNBC junk as the other places, then I’d rather let it die.

How about we all just be chill adults instead and work together on the whole point of TP, which is building the web’s best survival knowledge base without the junk.

 

Wanted to let you know, TP is my jam.  🙂

 

Preserve, it lasts longer than Jam 🙂

 

I prefer honey, the more local the better not that commercial rubbish.

 

Strange, I thought Okehampton had a population of over 27k people Paul, it certainly has a much higher crime rate per and benefit dependency per head than other parts of rural Devon.

 

you are wrong on both counts.

 

I will willingly help people wanting to learn how to prepare in the run up to any given disaster or crisis. BUT  there is simply no justifiable reason to help those AFTER  crisis has started except to rescue them from a threat. EVERY westen government has been encouraging every citizen to take sensible preparations against disasters including the notoriously Conservative  B british government. National level, state, county most schools, many businesses have ran schemes and programs encouraging people to prep. This is more so common in areas prone to natural disasters, but even other areas like the UK encourage its citizens to make sensible preps in case of further terror attacks / pandemics.

Simply put there is no excuse for anyone to not make at least some effort in being prepared, I believe those who CHOOSE not to prep should NOT be given access to preps, supplies and resources of those people who did prep.

So yes pull people out of flood water, burning buildings, snow drifts etc and give them dry clothes and a meal, but after that no more.

I will offer an example as an explanation, When we first moved to our current address some 20 years ago in the first wing our village was hit by a massive power cut. After dusk fell I realised that four or five home in the street  had not displayed any light and no smoke was coming from their chimneys. So i went to these homes to check if everyone was OK, One family had decamped to relatives but the others we sat in the cold and dark with neither hot food, heat or light.

So I issued Chem light sticks, candle lanterns, spare flashlights to those affected, My wife and I then produced  hot drinks and thermos flasks of hot stew to those families among other lesser items.

All fine and dandy we had done our civic duty and good neighbour bit and that was that.

About four or five years later we had a massive ice storm which cut our village off from the outside world AND it caused another power cut.

As dusk once again fell there was a knock at the door, it was the exact same neighbour that we helped before.

The First women said ” Have you any candles and matches  and flashlights please” and the guy from another house left me stunned when he asked ” What time will you be bring the hot drinks and stew round tonight? ” .

They had learned NOTHING from the first blackout and thought I should bail them out AGAIN. I was not very polite and told them to lok after themselves.

That is why I will always help those willing to learn and help themselves, But I will never help those who wont make any effort to make even the most moderate of preparations.

 

BUT  there is simply no justifiable reason to help those AFTER  crisis has started 

Bill, I will disagree.  As I’ve stated many times, I feel there is one major reason to do so… starving neighbors will be your greatest threat.  I feel that feeding starving neighbors will prevent a lot of conflict and help to build a small community where tasks are shared.

Granted, I’m not talking about feeding hundreds of souls in some subdivision.  In my case, it would be at most 8-10 families on our rural lane.

Now if you know a better way to accomplish this, I’m all ears.

 

Exactly this Redneck. I also think if you can get a little help in early, you end up with a more people willing to help each other out. 

I’d always though of doing this long before people were likely to be starving.

 

I have over the last ten to twelve years tried to get the neighbours to cooperate on assorted issues like Neighbourhood watch, Picking the kids up from school, bulk buying discount groups and prepping.  They are simply not interested.  They like to outdo the Jonees with ever grander cars and holidays, the fast food drivers are forever in this street.  But their idea of preps is dialling the police / council or utilities and demanding the service is restored immediately.   They will not help themselves.  If a house alarm goes off I am always the only neighbour who will respond. I will take the trash bins in for the old folks in the bungalows, they neighbours wont do anything. 

They wont take in parcels for their neighbours, I did until i realised after a chat with an Amazon driver that some of the neighbours were telling Amazon to deliver stuff straight to my house because I worked from home.

One guy turned up when I was out but my wife was home wanting to deliver two wardrobes that the neighbour down the street had ordered, he had specified that if they were not in that they should deliver these robes to MY house.

I stopped helping after one woman came knocking at my door with a parcel I had taken in from Fed Ex for her.   She wanted to return what ever she had purchased and thought because I had taken it in for her, that I should have to send it back for her “Because after all Bill you signed for it”.

So no Sir,  on this issue I am not in agreement with your good self.

As for starving neighbours, I’ll take my chances, the four of my family are all skilled with compound bows.

 

As for starving neighbours, I’ll take my chances, the four of my family are all skilled with compound bows.

Bill, first of all, sounds like you need new neighbors.  🙂

IMO, any solution to a problem that first involves violence, is not much of a solution.  IMO, in a crisis, the first thing we must do is avoid conflict.  We live in the real world and we ain’t Rambo.  Violence means injuries and deaths… the last thing you want in a crisis.  No matter how skilled you are, someone will get hurt or killed.

Now, I’m as prepared, or actually much more prepared than most when it comes to defending myself.  I train on my home range with my guns and am rather proficient.  That being said, the last thing I want to do is start a conflict.  Last thing I want to do is shoot a neighbor’s kid, who is starving & looking for a meal.  Last thing I want is for the neighbors to be pissed at me for shooting a kid.  All out conflict with your neighbors is a bad thing… very bad.  Even if you are skilled with bows.

The only method my feeble brain can come up with, to solve this problem is to provide food & resources to a few neighbors who are less prepared.  Is it fair?  No.  Is it a possible solution to a problem most preppers choose to ignore?  Yes.

 

100% agreement on those points, in a less than ideal world, I go out of my way to avoid conflict where possible.

 

Hi Bill! That must have been very disheartening to see that. After a disaster or situation happens to me, I see how miserable I was and don’t want that ever to happen again so I get prepared for the next time. But I guess that’s the difference between your neighbors and I. 

There will always be those kind of people and if you don’t want to ever help those neighbors again I don’t blame you. But hopefully other neighbors would react differently and learn. 

 

People are stupid, especially the British masses, they have learned nothing and will not learn anything, every event is treated the same, as if it is something new that has never happened before, and its always the same “when are the govt going to fix it?” nobody ever takes responsibility for their own survival, so why should preppers?

I’ve always said the human race isnt evolving its getting Dumb and Dumber, the more technology does something for them the less they remember how to do.

 

Virginia has a Good Samarital law. Check you state and study the basics.

There are complexities involved. The elderly person with a MedAlert braclet and senior citizen is not conscious, someone approaches your place and does not speak English.  His cough is like those with TB, a minor, 

As of now, the only person willing to help is a fist time pending mom. She’s all spaced out, guy left her for server at night club, also looks hungary and thristy.

Once helped above type during a non-mandatory evacuation. Did get much help from other evacuees. It was not in Virginia.

 

In reference to the guy asking when the stew will be delivered I would be sorely tempted to tell him I would feed his kids if they stop over but not him or his wife. Too many men don’t have a sense of responsibility or fatherhood, but that is a different topic.

I agree with Redneck about people in your ‘inner circle’ keeping their mouth shut in good times but blabbering to all their family and friends in a crisis. That’s a real risk. 

This is exactly what happened to a retired Louisiana State Trooper during Katrina. While he did not seem to talk about his setup before the storm, he invited two families to his home in northern Louisiana before the storm hit – and they brought 30 friends. The details are very instructive. (the 1st person account was posted by a friend of the trooper at http://frfrogspad.com/disastr.htm)

The best idea I have heard about offering assistance is this: keep your mouth shut but help your immediate neighbors – if you don’t have too many. If you want to help more people or you live in a more densely populated area and might not be able to trust your local neighbors give, your excess provisions to a church or food pantry and let them distribute it. Best idea would be to take a circuitous route home so no one followed you. Don’t give it to the government! 

What’s wrong with helping the government? From the post: “…numerous reports from in and near the disaster zone of individuals (e.g. boat-owners, farmers with barns, tractors, etc.) and corporate groups (e.g. companies with heavy equipment, churches with halls, etc.) finding an official on their doorstep demanding the use of their facilities or equipment. If they demurred, they were told that this was an “emergency situation” and that their assistance was being required, not requested. Some of them have lost track of the heavy equipment “borrowed” in this way, and don’t know where it is, whether or not it’s still in good condition, and when (if ever) it will be returned – and in the meantime, they can’t continue their normal operations without this equipment.”

YMMV

 

Shaun, thanks for sharing that link! I found it all very useful and persuasive. It makes a lot of sense to read a real world account of what many of us have pondered. We have a small acreage as well, and expect that acquaintances would descend upon us, so what to do? We couldn’t support them, and people need a lot more than parking space, after all. It’s a tough one to plan for, and to reasonably conceal how well prepared you may be. Our soil composition doesn’t allow for underground storage, so what to do? I so enjoy this site for sparking such discussions so we can share ideas of how we might handle it. 

 

People can get very passionate arguing about their specific version of the apocalypse! This and that WILL happen, and if you disagree with my interpretation, well, good luck surviving! Truth is, we don’t know what’s going to happen, how long it will last, how sudden or gradual, or how bad it will be. Flexible thinking is really important because we need to be able to adapt to different situations. Some of us are more community minded and some are more lone wolf by nature. Some of us have awesome neighbors and some (apparently!) have terrible neighbors. And the appropriate response to a global collapse where everyone around you is starving is completely different from the response to a local disaster or slow decline. Here’s what I’d say: It is ALWAYS a good idea to foster and strengthen community, wherever makes the most sense – family, neighbors, or a close network of friends. It is ALWAYS a good idea to keep relatively discreet about your preps if they are extensive. It is never a good idea to get so attached to your version of the apocalypse (community approach or me-against-the-world) that you can’t adapt. And it’s not worth mentally over-investing into whether you will or will not help others- it’s going to depend on the situation and there is no one answer.

 

And it’s not worth mentally over-investing into whether you will or will not help others- it’s going to depend on the situation and there is no one answer.

Agree mostly with your comments however, I feel it is important to invest mental capital as well as fiscal capital into if you will be offering aid to the unprepared.  If we have a crisis where this becomes an issue, it will be too late for most adapt or change.  I think most preppers only store provisions for their own family… not others.  Where will the resources come from to help others?

I was a typical prepper, storing foods and garden equipment for my family’s own use.  I started with just a few days worth of goods, to a few months and then eventually had enough to last over a year.  But then it hit me.  How would I protect what I had in a crisis.  Of course I’m well armed but I’ve always believed violence is the very last option… not the first.  So if not violence, what would protect me & mine?

Only option I’ve come up with is being prepared to offer aid to unprepared neighbors and friends.  I’ve never heard anyone come up with a better option.  I really feel most preppers just ignore this situation, but the way I see it, no matter how much goods you have in storage, you really aren’t prepared until you solve the problem of starving neighbors.

So I have invested a lot of thought into this issue… as well as a lot of dollars.  I’m hoping discussions like this will lead others to really consider how to deal with starving neighbors.

 

I think we are on the same page. I am community minded and always think about helping others in a disaster. When I owned a multifamily I specifically prepped with my tenants in mind. It’s definitely important to consider that you will need/want to provide for family, friends, neighbors. It’s just that we don’t know how possible that’s going to be and what it’s going to look like. You mentioned that most people prep enough for their families, but what’s enough? Most of us store what we can. If you can store enough food for a year for your family plus neighbors, until you can grow your own food, you are in a better position to plan, but even then I can see some variables that might affect the cost-benefit analysis of sharing. Like if there’s war or environmental devastation that would affect your ability to produce food, you might want to hold on tighter to your supplies. If it’s a slow decline where people are not immediately starving, sharing supplies could help create a resilient community. I’m just saying there are many potential situations and I always advocate not getting too attached to ideas about how things are going to go.

 

Like if there’s war or environmental devastation that would affect your ability to produce food, you might want to hold on tighter to your supplies.

And how do you hold onto your supplies?  You see, that is the question? That is the question I asked myself once I had covered my own needs.   If your first and only option is violence, then that’s not a world I would want to live in.  And unless you are Rambo, people in your family will get hurt & die.

Seriously, how would you hold onto your stores & keep your family safe from starving neighbors?

 

What works morally and culturally for you Sir does not always mean it works for anyone else, if violence is needed to protect  either my self, family or group I will use it, reluctantly, Indeed VERY reluctantly but I will protect what is rightfully and lawfully mine.  There is simply not a one size fits all method for prepping.

I know of many preppers who live a borderline hand to mouth existance  as it is , and would not have sufficient resources to give supplies away to others.

Look at how kindly decent and gentle peoples like the Hugonots, Amish Mennonites etc have been treated ( persecuted) and preyed upon by others in times of disaster/ shortages/ crisis , heck many had to flee Europe for remote areas of north and south america to live their self sufficient lifestyles, YET every time society caught up with them they ended up being looted, robbed etc by the local mainstream society when ever there was shortages of food.

I like the way many Jewish communities work and cooperate along with the Mormons, Kind and generous to a fault, but when they decided their generosity has reached its limits they are willing to use force to draw a line.

I have personally met Church related prepping groups in the US whose preps they make absolutely clear are ONLY going to Congregational members, not outsiders, not very christian if you believe in that sort of stuff , but they accept the limitations as to whom they can help.

 

What works morally and culturally for you Sir does not always mean it works for anyone else, if violence is needed to protect  either my self, family or group I will use it, reluctantly, Indeed VERY reluctantly but I will protect what is rightfully and lawfully mine.  There is simply not a one size fits all method for prepping.

I couldn’t agree more.  Offering aid to the unprepared is not for beginner preppers or preppers who just want to handle a small, localized crisis.  Prepping for the unprepared is more like graduate school, as opposed to elementary school.  It is taking prepping to the next level.  You obviously can’t attend graduate school straight from elementary school… there is a long, drawn out process with lots of expense & education.

Also, I most certainly don’t prep for the unprepared because I’m morally superior or some really nice guy.  I actually hate people and like to keep to myself.  If I wasn’t married, I’d probably be some hermit.  I too am prepared to defend what I have with violence.  I doubt if many preppers are more so.  Besides all my guns & tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, I train very often on my home range.

My only point is I think most preppers fail to really consider how they will survive and protect their possessions (preps) during a real crisis.  And yes, I believe having weapons and proper training is number 1… training being the most important.  The question is, should violence be the first and only option?  If not, then what?  By the way, this is not a rhetorical question.  I really want to know what others will do.

In my situation, living on a rural, dead end lane with 10 families on it, lends itself to providing aid to the unprepared.  And even if they are unprepared, doesn’t mean all of them are liabilities.  Two of the families have hundreds of cattle each.  Two other families have a nurse as a member & one different family is a dentist.  IMO, our lane is isolated enough and has enough resources to stand a chance of forming a post crisis community.

I understand most preppers don’t live such a life.  I too, when younger, lived in a suburban subdivision, surrounded by hundreds of homes.  But even then, I think I would still try to provide aid and build a community for joint protection… even if it involved just my immediate neighbors.

To sum up my belief, a prepper doesn’t provide aid because of their morals… they provide aid as a tool to help survive the chaos which will follow a severe crisis.  A small community, even just two households, can provide more security than one prepper family.

 

*Huguenots were part of my mixed heritage.

 

so were mine a couple of centuries ago.

 

Ha, I’m supposed to be doing an internet fast this week but couldn’t resist checking  – here’s my last comment! And this is not so much in response to the original post as it is to the back and forth debate in the comments. My point is that it’s all hypothetical, there are a TON of variables, and any real situation will involve tough choices. People tend to imagine scenarios that best fit the solutions they are already drawn to…..Rambo types imagine a scenario where violence works, communitarians imagine a scenario where sharing works, people who want to bug out imagine scenarios where that’s the best plan. And then they argue about it! Truth is, anything can happen. Give yourself the most options to handle as many situations as possible, in balance with your actual life priorities and resources. Challenge your own disaster fantasies by imagining scenarios in which your favorite solution DOESN’T work, and don’t get too attached to any one solution.

 

Seriously, how would you hold on to your stores & keep your family safe from starving neighbors?

This. This has always preyed on my mind and I have yet to think of a valid reason to not share.

I have given a great deal of thought to the idea of sharing what I have and every time, it comes down to this one point and I would rather share and have someone help watch our collective backs, than face a streetful of desperate people as a very small family unit who will, if we’re lucky last a few days at most before being forced out.

I have a contingency plan for that event, but it’s not one I’m willing to share. So I would help early, not just with food, but with the means to grow more and the resources to learn other ways of keeping a community intact. My seeds store is large and varied. Give a man a rod and all that.

You cite the Amish and Mennonites as being easy targets Bill, but in the face of adversity it is their very community spirit that has seen them survive year on year. These people know the value of their community and they support each other without question and most importantly still get through dire consequences in sufficiently good shape to start again, They do not really consider the individual but the collective and in a collective is strength, maybe not the sort of physical strength so revered by modern society. but the strength in a team and how they can provide for one another until the individual can provide for themselves again. It is the aim to save the community and belief system rather than a single person or family.

This is what I’m investing in. I have no illusion that I would succumb quite quickly to a full on attack, as my own Quaker heritage has not equipped me to consider violence.

 

So I would help early, not just with food, but with the means to grow more and the resources to learn other ways of keeping a community intact. My seeds store is large and varied. Give a man a rod and all that.

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

My feelings exactly.  I keep hundreds of pounds of seed in storage, way more than I would ever need.  During such a crisis, all members of the group will need to stay busy… yes providing security but also growing food.  I have 5 primary seeds that I store.  The three sisters, corn, pole beans & winter squash, are well proven by the native Americans.  To some extent, they also grew amaranth, which could easily be the most important crop grown post crisis.  I also add collards, as they are a cool weather crop and extend the growing season.

 

So I would help early, not just with food, but with the means to grow more and the resources to learn other ways of keeping a community intact. My seeds store is large and varied. Give a man a rod and all that.

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

I agree & store hundreds of pounds of garden seed to share with my neighbors.  Most of my seed storage consists of 5 varieties.  The three sisters, corn, pole beans & winter squash have been well proven by native Americans. Amaranth, could easily be the most important crop post crisis.  Plus I add collards, as they are a cool weather crop to be grown spring & fall, to extend the growing season.

 

I almost hesitate to mention… that maybe getting involved in the public policy discussion before something bad happens is a good idea. I haven’t read this discussion completely, and I’ve seen some comments about helping before, but not on public policy. Sorry if I missed if someone did.

Everyone we can help learn to be more prepared is one less person later who will have trouble in a shtf issue. and Public policy is still a great place to engage. 

above copied from online. Don’t know if it’s genuine, but I am pretty sure that –

There are interests that don’t want you to be able to generate your own electricity.

There are interests that don’t want you to be able to be armed for your protection.

There are interests that were Ok with moving health, tech,etc, supply lines out of the country.

Looks like there are interests who want to limit the exchange of ideas on becoming more prepared.

I could go on, and hopefully I haven’t stepped on toes…. I’m not going tell you what to engage in the public arena about, just maybe engage.

But I’ll repeat a quote from a friend….”if you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu”    

 

Good morning Iowa Guy,

I am one of those private citizens involved in public policy aspects. Had posted a couple of examples here at TP.com. After Army was a Federal reserve emergency manager with Office of Emergency Transportation, USDOT. For 11 years worked a national program … think of the response to the oil embargoes.

Prior to attending any public meeting – still going on even during the pandemic – it must be accepted and adjusted for – that middle America has been “dumbed down” in the non-perjorative sense. Even some young, college-educated USMC Lieutenants admitted to me they didn’t have the background to discuss some basic stuff many of us here learned about in scouts, 4-H clubs, etc.

Can’t comment on the posted letter.

Those “interests” you allude to are strong and infused throughout the fruited plain. It’s about wealth transfers. Focus on labor economics and the downstream labor politics.

Your friend’s quote is 100% correct.

That Iowa farm Khrushchev visited was owned by Roswell Garst. Two months ago at an eastern Virginia prepper fair/meeting, met a guy from Iowa who was very familiar.

Hope you had a happy and safe Labor Day holiday.

 

I probably missed your examples. I’ll have to browse your post history when i have more time.

 

we have now had 3 Covid lock downs in the UK, each time they are  announced we see panic buying in the supermarkets, these “Sheeple” and by that I mean STUPID PEOPLE clear the shelves of anything they can get hold off including Toilet paper and milk.

whats the matter with people, after one lock down you would think they would get the idea and have a stock of food “just in case” but no its the “nothing bad will happen” brigade until the next time it happens then they repeat it all over again.

and some people think I should give my food and preps, which I have paid for out of my own pocket, to people who will not take care of their own families, for gratis and for nothing out of the goodness of my heart, sorry not going to happen.

 

I respectfully take issue with your comment about shelves being stripped in the three lockdowns. I can assure you my area was perfectly stocked throughout the last two lockdowns, the only problem we had here was in the first lockdown, (even then the shortages were for a couple of weeks only until the stores caught up with demand) and as I have a good stock, it didn’t really affect me and as I mentioned earlier, I checked with others to make sure they were OK. Most were fine one family got caught out with a lack of formula and vegetables, but neighbours plugged the gap and the recipients in return, replaced the items donated, so I really don’t understand where you get these tales from. My neighbourhood is far from special.

Also name calling has already been highlighted earlier in the thread. 

 

Same here in Mississippi.  At no time could I not find what I needed.  Maybe not the brand I needed but I was able to find everything I needed too.

And yes, the staff here has already stated they don’t want name calling.  That is for other discussion forums… not this one.

 

it isnt name calling.

I found this description some time ago on a search engine.

“Sheeple= people who are docile, foolish and easily led”.unquote.

 

I politely point you to post made by Staff member John Ramey.

“We know that for some people it’s not a derogatory word, and that it is for others. There’s plenty of other words that’s happened to. It’s just a flaw in language. So whatever the intention, words like that can distract from the goal of focusing on preparedness for a wide range of people, because it can gatekeep / fuel the vibe (that you see in other communities) of culture-war bullshit.

I don’t want to be the word nanny, trust me. But notice that we didn’t make a big thing of it, edit it out, hide your whole comment, scold you, etc. We left a polite comment saying “hey, welcome, this is the vibe around here — here’s how to not get people distracted from your otherwise valid point about fish-out-of-water city folk and instead make it helpful to those very same people.”

If that’s not your jam, no worries, sincerely wish you luck finding your tribe elsewhere.

p.s. If the only way to prevent TP from “dying and fading away” is turning it into the same Fox News vs. MSNBC junk as the other places, then I’d rather let it die.

How about we all just be chill adults instead and work together on the whole point of TP, which is building the web’s best survival knowledge base without the junk.”

On a personal level, I’m here because the members of this forum are more interested in sharing and discussing experiences, ideas and methods than calling out and gloating over the ‘other side’ because they may not be prepared and long may it continue.

 

Lonewolf, please see the conversations earlier in this thread that addresses the use of the word sheeple.

To quote John Ramey’s comment up above:

“We know that for some people it’s not a derogatory word, and that it is for others. There’s plenty of other words that’s happened to. It’s just a flaw in language. So whatever the intention, words like that can distract from the goal of focusing on preparedness for a wide range of people, because it can gatekeep / fuel the vibe (that you see in other communities) of culture-war bullshit.”

Even if you didn’t mean it to be a derogatory word, please see that multiple users have not enjoyed that choice of words. Please do not use that word again.

—-

In response to your comment, I can see how some may have seen those who panic bought toilet paper and milk as stupid people during the first lockdown, but we also need to realize that these people probably are just preparing and doing the best that they can to deal with a very rare and stressful situation. They might not have know what else to do. 

And like you said, it seems like many didn’t learn from the first time and we are seeing similar repeated patterns of behavior. While this can be frustrating, it means that we haven’t done our job of teaching and educating people completely on how to rationally handle and prepare for these situations. I hope that seeing things like this encourages us to share our knowledge and skills with our neighbors and friends, because they just might not know that there is a healthier and less stressful way to handle such situations.

 

with regard to THAT word, it is in common use across many prepper forums, I didnt make it up and like many words preppers use we all know it means the unprepared masses, its just shorthand.

and as for the unprepared masses, I dont think we, as preppers, can help them, they just dont get it and never will, you can tell someone until you are “blue in the face” as we say here but if they dont get it they arent going to prepare, even for small events never mind things like pandemics.

feeding them or just some of them post SHTF is not going to get them to prepare, to be responsible for their own actions, and to me thats just helping the non productive to survive, and they wont be helping anyone after the collapse, JUST THEMSELVES.

 

isnt it funny when some people are fixated on a particular word, or have we been invaded by the “woke” brigade? ha!ha!ha!

someone should maybe tell them that “sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me”-old childhood nursery rhyme.

believe me there will be more to offend some post collapse than mere words.

 

So done with you Lonewolf/BigPaul/Bulldogeagle, enjoy your new forum.

 

@Lonewolf I don’t necessarily disagree with the spirit of what you’re saying, but this is what I mean by these kinds of culture-war words and attitudes causing a distraction.

Yes, wokeism sometimes goes too far, just like the other side does. The better answer instead is to focus on prepping, rather than arguing over stupid bullshit.

But here’s where you’re wrong: “And as for the unprepared masses, I dont think we, as preppers, can help them, they just don’t get it and never will.”

TP and this community have already proven otherwise, bringing millions of people into this lifestyle that many of the “old school” preppers never would’ve thought had a chance.

Let’s get back to why we’re all here, m’kay? 🙂 We really don’t want to start taking a heavier hand in moderation… but we will.

 

you seem to know me, do I know you?

 

I respectfully disagree with you Lonewolf. People do learn, especially if you take the trouble to help them at first. Teaching a person how to look after themselves may also help them avoid the same mistakes the we have made in the past. Sometimes people do irrational things when they’re in a stress situation. Just because a person does something irrational it doesn’t mean that they’re stupid or beyond help.

 

and I respectfully disagree with you smitty, most- and yes there are exceptions- of the population dont have a clue about survival and we can try to explain to them what to do until we are blue in the face, but unless they want to learn they wont.

 

Its a frightening thing to think about: being forced to make a decision between moral ideals and survival. Frightening but necessary for the sake of mental clarity. Thank you for the brain food, Carter. 

 

For me, the decision is not between morals & survival… it is ALL about survival.  I will not offer aid to the unprepared because I’m such a nice guy.  Far from it.  I will offer aid to a select few families simply to increase MY odds of survival.  I think hungry neighbors will be a prepper’s greatest threat in a crisis.

What is the greater threat, starving neighbors or neighbors sharing resources and working together?  To remove the threat of starving neighbors simply requires more planning & more resources.

 

Good point, but to be fair red, hungry neighbors are ALWAYS a threat even in so-called “civilized” times. I learned that one the hard way when I used to live in the States….you’d be surprised what people will do once lured by the siren song of BBQ’d pork. 

 

That sounds like an interesting story, Bongohead. Want to share for educational purposes? I’ve considered the consequence of food prep smells spreading through the air when others are hungry. You know how hunger sharpens senses, just go tent camping/hiking to experience it. 

 

Hola CR!

It was back in ’08. I was invited by an old college friend to drop by his place in Portland for the week before Christmas (since I would be traveling to see my family on Christmas Eve). 

Come to find out, he hadn’t invited me out of the goodness of his heart: seems he had fond memories of my cooking from the old days and wanted to have some Lechon Cubano (BBQ Roast Pork) for  a big shindig he was having (apparently, to impress his boss).

I was upset of course, but he plied me with room, board, and cigars (as well as playing to my ego), so I went along with it.

I prepped the pork for a full day and then on the day of the event, roasted it in sight of the assembled guests (50 in all). All the other food was inside the house, so my porcine perfection was the center of attention outside.

Everything was fine…except for one small detail: this whole thing was going down effectively on his front lawn in a  fairly claustrophobic  neighborhood. So it didn’t take too long for the sight, sounds, and smells of the food to attract some uninvited guests. People began to swarm in and pick at the meat like vultures. 

Before long, the whole place was full of folks who weren’t even from the neighborhood hanging around and stealing food and harassing guests. One thing led to another and soon the whole thing went from a snobby get-together to a block brawl!

A lot of injuries that evening, but the biggest tragedy was that no one got to eat my masterpiece (during one scuffle, it got knocked over and covered in mud and poodle excrement). 🙁

 

Wow! My heart hurts for the waste of that delicious pork! Not to mention anarchy at what should have been a celebration. What a crazy story, and in the context of our well fed (relatively) current society! Thanks for sharing, that will give us all some pause as we think about how to share food or not. 

 

🙂   You a retired expat from the states living the dream?

 

Si senor! I used to vacation in Panama, and then I decided that Panama living was for me. I left the USA for good over six years ago. Haven’t looked back since. 🙂 

 

Here’s a related forum thread about controlling food odors while sheltering in place or bugging out.

 

Oooh, that’s handy! Thank you, Gideon!

 

Good morning,

Ref the word selection for forum;

The word used by Warrior is not derogatory nor hurtful in most uses. It is just not appropriate for dealing with large blocs of newcomers to TP.com site who might take offense.

Think if you see words like “tenderfoot”, novice, intern, …

The objective is to get participation here, whether to read current national thinking on preparedness matters, subject matter in dispute (eg does one turn off gas to stove when on planned evacuation? There are different unofficial and official views in Virginia.)

Etc.

I agree with our senior editors John and Gideon.

A foot note; There’s another word with some use in prepper community: “gas lighting”. Am still not comfortable with it’s contemporary meaning for its use.

End of transmission.

 

people need to be responsible for their actions.

cant be bothered to prepare? then accept the consequences.

with all that is happening in the world these days only the idiotic cant see “the writing on the wall”.

 

Why the need to attack folks that are unprepared?  Why argue with the forum staff?  The whole point of this forum is to bring in the unprepared and teach them how to prepare, in a safe environment.  Describing the unprepared as stupid, sheeple and idiots is offensive and will do nothing but run away the audience TP is seeking.

Why are you here?  If you just want to argue, there are much better prepper forums for that.  This is not your sandbox.  If you don’t like the rules, don’t argue with the staff… just look elsewhere for what you need.

I hope the staff handles this member quickly.  

 

Good morning Lonewolf,

In a sense, an analogy, it’s like those not accepting hermits.  I do and the word is not even needed.

The problem is that the consequences involve the entire place.  The current illustration is not getting vaccinated against the COVID-19 virus. You know I’ve addressed those who store gasoline for their own use … OK so far … but didn’t get professional help and the wildfire affects all in the extended area.

Sometimes words are innocent enough in their use. The more experienced and “well-traveled” know that our language can have deven better words to use.

I’m an extrovert – not really relevant to prepping. Just like being an introvert: not relevant. Our goal is to help and not tell others they have been deficient for too long. Many resons govern all this. 

 

good morning Bob,

the problem in the UK is that preppers, homesteaders, back to the landers etc.etc. number much less than 1% of the population, 80-85% of the population all live in cities and large urban overpopulated areas and they all have modern attitudes, and preparing “for a rainy day” never mind the collapse of civilisation is not one of them.

trying to preach or even teach the unconvertable masses is just a waste of time and effort, it isnt going to happen.

 

A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck and day to day, without much space for future living. It can be very hard to break out of time and money loops. I’d also say that everyone on the planet can’t go live on a homestead or off grid, because there are too many people (its why cities develop, since ancient times). The Little House on a Prairie was near a town, Walnut Grove, and beyond that, you’d have an actual city here and there. I’ve thought about people in housing units and apartments and wondered about block or building preps (actually providing bug out bags or emergency provisions or safety items) as an individual/social aid. This doesn’t sound self-sufficient, but what it does do is create a web of individual safety nets in time of disaster. I’ve been in an Up Town area, and now I’m further away, but still in a metro area. I have thought about going somewhere else, but I’m honestly not sure what that would mean. I do not think people should homestead unless they want to LIVE on a homestead, and the same goes for their families (don’t turn family into free labor against their will or out of guilt). My grandparents lived on a family farm, but had to sell it when my grandfather’s health made it too hard. So they then moved into the very small town nearby. There are many factors people need to consider about what they can and can’t do at different times in their life. A self-sufficient person might end up like my grandfather, with several minor heart and stroke issues (not massive, but too many and creating a need to retire from farm life).

What has put me on Red Alert is Climate Change. The IPCC Report from 2019 alarmed me very much. I also worry about milita violence. There is a very blood-thirsty fantasy element I find alarming in a Radio Rwanda sort of way in America. I don’t want to live like I’m dying, but I am trying to figure out the best way to position myself in good ways for where I am right now. The Unprepared aren’t necessarily idiots for not seeing potential future disasters. They might lack time, money, breathing space, situational awareness beyond current living conditions (whether too poor  (all struggle every day) or too rich (super rich live on another planet in some ways). There will be selfish idiots everywhere, but you can’t treat all people like selfish idiots for not being preppers. I once tried to buy a bunch of things from the camping section at one store, but then I put it back because it wasn’t financially wise at the time. Technically, I don’t have that camping stuff and am not prepared. But it’s not because I didn’t want to at the time. What if there is some weather disaster where I could have used that stuff, but don’t happen to have it? Now, someone else might not even think to get supplies at ALL, and thus not have them, either. I think some normalized public encouragement, bigger personal aid thinking, and considering where people are in their lives will help everyone get on the road to thinking ahead for different contingencies. 

One thought for Mutual Aid might be for over worked health care workers during the pandemic. Every state is straining and some of their system and supply problems still need fixing. At any rate, many work all hours, have very little family time, and may have PTSD or develop it in the future. 

 

Good morning Erika,

Even the poor and stressed out can and do become preppers.  If they accept they cannot do this on their own, they will be welcome into some small groups.

I just spent a long coffee break at a veterans org this AM. Everyone there is not rich. 

Someone who just got out of the military, will be walking away from the veterans’ hall with a couple of packs, hurricane emergency food and water, a couple of tools,…

I was always a prepper even though I thought this word was reserved for the doomsday preppers. Like most others, did not start out with a pack of money.

It’s about knowledge and its application; not wealth.

Don’t worry about the “militia”.  They will learn firsthand what the Havana Syndrome feels like.

 

I am by no means rich at all. Not paycheck to paycheck, but I don’t have much at the end of the day. But just like Bob said, there are ways that even the poor can build up their preps. 

I like this quote: “Our direction is ever more important than our speed”

As long as we are heading in the right direction of constantly learning, storing what we can, and practicing when we can we will eventually get to our destination. 

I tend to ask for gear for Christmas or my birthday and look forward to those times each year when I can get a new ferro rod, or a bucket of freeze dried food.
 

 

If I can help others without risking my own safety or the safety of my immediate family and neighbours then I will. I would prefer to teach others the skills to protect themselves and feed themselves rather than me feed them repeatedly. What I will not do is make myself a destination for freeloaders that I don’t even recognise.

There have been a lot of comments about people not learning from previous emergencies, sometimes it needs to be made absolutely clear to people that next time they will be expected to look after themselves and others, you may need to explain what they need to do for their own welfare, what they need to buy and set aside for emergencies.

I have a friend who is ex forces and runs a survival-outdoor pursuits store who virtually sold out of camping stoves after the last bunch of storms to hit the UK. People do learn to put contingencies in place if you make it easy for them.

 

There is something that I would like to add. When a person spends too long alone they tend to spiral inwards and get a bit weird, we are social animals. If someone isn’t used to the challenge of rubbing along with others then their response to any kind of unwanted social interaction is more likely to quickly escalate to confrontational behaviour.

Beware the crazy loner, they might not have any middle gears.

 

Joker that is a great quote that I felt compelled to share with family. It’s absolutely true. 

 

not true of everybody, some just dont have time for false people’

why bother “rubbing along” with others as you put it if in a collapse event most of them wont be around afterwards, for one reason or another.

the survival rate in Britain wont be very high, as too much reliance is put on technology and resources and very little on skills and knowledge, in fact many skills have been completely abandoned as most consider them “old fashioned” in the computer age.