Quantifying safety

Frozen22 - February 14, 2022

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After Putin’s threat of nuclear war last week, I would have hoped it would remind many unprepared people that they can never be 100% safe. Also it made me think that we often seek things out because they make us “feel safer”, but that can be irrational.

If you spend $10,000 crime-proofing your home but live in a very low-crime area, you might be only $100 safer. But if you’d used it to pay down debt or saved/invested it, you’d be at least $10,000 safer. As someone who isn’t wealthy and lives in an apartment in a city, I’m mindful of the potential for me to waste money on gear that might ultimately have little value. The water, energy, hygiene, and food preps I have seem to be of the highest value, but perhaps I could do more though it might be best to invest those funds.

So how do others quantify safety? I’m genuinely curious how other people do the calculus of prepping, including the basics of physical and financial health.

Best wishes to all.

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For me, the first item to take care of is your financial health.  Make sure you limit or eliminate any credit.  Pay all credit cards off in full each month.  If & when you have a mortgage, set it up where you pay it off in 15 years or less.  Keep at a minimum, 6 months salary in readily accessible accounts.

As far as physical health, I concentrate on the basics… shelter, food & water.  The sky’s the limit on how far you want to take that.  I started my prepper journey with storing a week’s worth of food and water.  Now I’m setup to be self sufficient and keeps thousands of pounds of food in storage.

 

You definitely want to get your bases covered with the basics of water, energy, hygiene, and food. Those will be valuable whatever the disaster, be it unemployment, earthquake, power outage, or end of the world.

After you have the basics, work on getting out of debt and building up a reserve for the future. That will bring you more peace of mind and reduce stress than many other things. 

Then after you have built up a reserve, look at where you are weak. If you live in a very low crime neighborhood, then don’t spend all your money on crime-proofing like you said. But if you are in an area that is prone to drought, then work on water storage.

That’s the formula that I work through. What are your thoughts on it and does that apply to your circumstances?

 

Thanks for your responses, and I agree about the basics which I think are my upper limit of prepping. This isn’t just because of my financial resources or living space, but I think there’s not enough discussion about the opportunity costs of prepping. I’m thinking here of people who aren’t independently wealthy.

If you do the extreme of prepping–setting up a homestead with a bunker, etc.–you’d better be in love with that lifestyle and feel it’s the best possible life for your kids, because you give up a lot by doing that. Cities offer all kinds of amenities and security, even in a crisis, and just because something could happen at any moment doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to live your life like that.

I think of scenarios where I’d be content to be fairly un-prepped. For example, I’m on the trip of a lifetime with someone(s) I care about, and it’s going well. A crisis happens and I’m trapped. I realize there are some psychological preps etc that give a relative advantage in those situations, but there’s no multitool or water jug that’s going to save me. In essence, I’d be ok to resign myself to the crisis. These are sort of like “do not resuscitate” situations, and I’m using the same mentality people deploy when faced with critical illness.

So even though I could if I really put myself to it, I’m not buying a homestead or leaving the city., and I’m fine with my c. two weeks of food. I think that’s reasonable.

 

Sounds like you have your act together.  The key is to do what you love and live where you love.  Me?  I hate the city… any city.  I don’t like being around people.  I love the rural life & love growing my own food.

Keep in mind plenty of homesteads are within 30 miles of a city.

 

Thanks and that’s a good point about homesteads. And by the way I’m in no way critical of people who homestead. I just wanted some discussion about different approaches and what people see as the trade-offs. I’m glad life has been good to you.

 

Not everyone should or can live on a homestead in the middle of no where. It’s good to hear that you aren’t setting that expectation for yourself of “The Way” to prepare.

I certainly am not independently wealthy and have the same mentality about certain circumstances as you have. If I am out on a trip and a disaster happens, bad luck for me. It would be nice to always carry around my bug out bag, but it’s just not realistic. I try and prepare for what I can and the most likely situations to happen to me and if things happen outside of that scope, then at least I tried.

 

I am intrigued by the notion that living in the boondocks is inherently safer than being in town.  That is probably true for some situations, but not for others.

Think about medical care when you are in the boonies.  My career has put me in some very distant places and I can assure you than medical treatment can be very hit or miss.

Obviously you should learn all the first aid you can, but that is only a beginning.  For anything beyond a scratch, you should present at a decent ER.  For quite some time I was a nationally certified EMT,with emphasis on wilderness skills – don’t ask me how I know this.

there are advantage to living remotely, but there are negatives as well.

 

Every piece of rural property is different.  There is no way to generalize.  What is the boonies for some means something different for others.  And as I stated, living on a homestead doesn’t necessarily mean living in the boonies.  I’ve seen many a small farm within 15 miles of a city.

Take me for example.  I live in rural north Mississippi, about an hours drive from Memphis.  I live just a few miles from a small town of a few thousand people.  Our vet office is just a 4 minute drive away & the local hospital, which I would only use in an emergency, is just down the road from that.  We are about a 30 minute drive to top rated hospitals in the suburbs of Memphis.  We live off a rural highway headed for nothing big or fancy.

As far as my life being safer than a city dweller… who knows?  I know where I live, I can leave the house and leave the doors unlocked & the garage door up.  I live on a dead end lane & the old farmer who lives at the end, says he has had only one thing stolen in all his years there… and family did it.  However drive 5 minutes into the small town, and you will have everything stolen if you leave your garage open.

If one wants to live a more rural life, it can be found close in to big cities.  The closer in, the more expensive.  The closer in, the more stores, restaurants, hospitals, etc. you will have in close.  The closer in, the more a prepper has to be concerned with evacuations from the city.  One just has to find the balance of the things in life that mean the most. 

 

Many people move to a rural community to get away from the city and “be safer” from the dangers that a city brings like crime. But then many make it back to the city in their elder years when they can’t live up to the demands of a rural life and it actually becomes safer for them once they live closer to medical and living care in the city.

For many, it just depends on your circumstances and where you are in life.

 

Great questions — How does one quantify safety? What about the opportunity costs of prepping? A few thoughts — Safety is one component of well being, and there are other components. Health includes mental, emotional, spiritual or philosophical health, as well as physical health. Cities and rural environments are not the only choices. Towns of various sizes can be good choices. What’s “best” most likely changes over a person’s lifetime.

I’m not as much interested in the “best” choice in any small number of categories as I am in the “good enough” choices in all categories. One way to frame the two approaches is “maximizing” vs. “satisficing” (word made up, not by me). For me, maximizing behavior has opportunity costs that are too high. It makes more sense to go for “good enough” everywhere, especially as a retirement age person.

Prepping is gambling, in a sense. It’s worthwhile to look at human behavior regarding gambling (dealing with uncertainty). As I understand it, most people hate walking away from bad investments, even when they should. Hence the prevalence of “throwing good money after bad.” Knowing that about general human behavior, we can maybe look at our own behavior and correct for that bias.

 

Prepping is a form of gambling. But the odds are ever increasing for it to pay off.

 

If you eally want to gamble, don’t prep.  Anyway, life in general is risking the odds….

 

Hello everyone. On Quantifying safety, two thoughts that might help from 12 years out on my prepper journey.

First, there is a GREAT mental / emotional health benefit to hitting the point where you have no financial debt. When you are losing no money to interest payments, that money can go into helping with preparedness for ANY scenario.

And lastly, everyone thinks differently. But one principle that has helped me a lot is to prepare on an “elapsed time” basis. at the very beginning of your prepping, look at where you are and ask yourself this. If I lost ALL outside support right now (no water, no electric, no natural gas / propane, huge weather swings, no supermarket, no gasoline, no police, ambulance service, or fire department) for the next hour, what would I most likely need first? Then take action to get the stuff (and plans) in place to be ready to handle one hour with no outside support, based on the needs that are most likely to come up for you and your loved ones in your area in the next hour. Once you’re ready for one hour, then move to say 12 hours, or whatever interval of increased time you like. And it feels good to hit the goals over time, particularly based on your location and situation. It was a MAJOR gain in peace of mind when we hit the point of being able to “hold the fort” for 10 days on our own.

Example, when we lived 90 feet above sea level in California, I was not nearly as concerned with heat and cold as I am now, since we live in high desert at 4,800 feet elevation. Our first day here, it went from 92 degrees at 3 PM to eight degrees at 11 PM that evening. “Dual fuel” heaters went from a “no need” to “next purchase” on our list quickly.

So, think about starting out your prepping with the question, “How likely am I to need this thing in the next hour?” And working your way to the question, “How likely am I to need this thing in the next year?” It has served my family well so far.

 

I like that mentality of preparing for one hour, then 12, and so on. It makes it much more manageable than telling someone to just up and prepare for 6 months.

 

Hi Happy Soul,

Breaking down your prepping needs into such small increments is a great way to stop feeling overwhelmed by what to buy next or how to achieve ALL THE THINGS that you may think you’ll need to be prepared.

Mind if I pinch your plan/idea? 🙂 I’m due for my first 6-monthly review of all my preps and I think it would be good for me to view them under the 1h, 12h, etc lens.

 

GB and M.E. Thank You for your kind words, and the idea is “open game” for the prepper community as far as I’m concerned. It’s a concept I “transferred in” from a past career when considering the very issue that GB brought up. How do I “cover all the bases” without becoming overwhelmed, and still stick to my budget? 

 

Jay, you hit the issue exactly. Trying to be ready for the next six months “instantly” is NOT fun, nor is it a labor of love. And preparing can be both! 

 

In my many years of prepping, I’ve always done the same… having incremental goals.  I happen to be a goal centered individual. I went from being prepared to take care of my family for days, to weeks, to months, to years. 

Once I reached that point, I started considering how many additional folks I could add to our family group.  I came up with a set number of pounds of food stores it would take, per person, and that would be my goal.  Once that goal was reached, I’d say in my mind, one more person saved… and then start on another.  Point being, in a severe crisis, I think it unreasonable to not expect other friends & family to show up… especially for folks living on a homestead.

 

I have been reading this site for years and this “next hour” approach is so refreshing! Thank you so much for sharing. I love it and will definitely use that mindset. From hard experience I can say that water, water, WATER is definitely a first-hour requirement.  

And as for the “quantifying safety” question – well I have a confession to make. To me prepping is a fun hobby. Do people ask guitar players to “quantify the value” of their guitars? Or is it enough to just – enjoy it? I enjoy all the learning. I enjoy all the planning. I seriously, seriously enjoy all the gear.  

Will I be sad if I never get to use my titanium spork? Not really. Am I very, very glad that I got to compare titanium sporks? Absolutely.  

 

There is no reason spending $10k on beans or locks is any less “logical” than spending it on a ski boat, dirt bike or stereo. It comes down to priorities, if a person is happy at whatever level of preparation I personally don’t  begrudge them.

But the idea that preppers generally are any more profligate than the average westerner is wrong in my experience. In fact, most seem to be pretty frugal and consider the least purchases carefully, look at most any thread here requesting experience with this or that small purchase. The parable that applies is the Grasshopper and the Ant, where the ant is diligent, the hopper is feckless. Most preppers I think would choose the Ant’s position and want to be able to help others, or at least not be the one begging.  

The flip side of planning is normalcy bias, Wiki says:
Normalcy bias is a cognitive bias which leads people to disbelieve or minimize threat warnings. Consequently, individuals underestimate the likelihood of a disaster, when it might affect them, and its potential adverse effects. … About 70% of people reportedly display normalcy bias during a disaster.

Otherwise known as the deer in the headlights look—and also in my experience 70% is low. Most people simply don’t consider the possibility of a glitch in their day to day, it is uncomfortable, it requires assessing one’s skills and confronting their limits and choosing between a ski boat and some beans. Most would just rather not go there.

And yeah, preppers focus on checklists. But I’m convinced that Eisenhower’s ditty is most appropriate. He said: It’s not the plan, it’s the planning.  In other words, in order to not be the deer in the headlights, one needs to consider the ramifications, possibilities, tactics of someday needing to cross the road. Not necessarily buy a bunch of flares or even build an overpass, but simply considering a difficult situation makes them 100% more prepared.

Like stereos there is a range of investment. Some people think a fishhook is sufficient while others want a full homestead. I don’t judge, simply having the conversation is a positive step. I personally, have no long term debt, no short term debt, no credit cards and money in the bank. I’ve also built up a nice hoard of tools, food, skills, knowledge. I’ve had a homestead as well, though I never did build the bunker, or tornado shelter as they’re call in these parts.

Frozen 22, You don’t need to spend a penny to read, learn, become more knowledgeable and share that knowledge, if you want. The fact that you are here, asking questions says much about your mindset. Your strawman argument is off base though, most folks have no plans or desire to set up a “Homestead w/Bunker” they just want their family to be a little more resilient. There is nowhere safe In the long run, no matter how much money you have. 

 

We can thank TV for the mindset preppers want to live in a bunker.

 

Hi, I certainly wasn’t suggesting that preppers are more profligate or irrational than other people, I was just curious about how some people think analytically about their preps, that’s all. 
And if someone also finds it fun, nothing wrong there. I appreciate all the great comments. 

 

I have thought about the city vs rural argument, and considered that cities, towns, and rural places have all existed for millennia. So, really, it is a matter of choice for what you want or need, or think you’ll want or need from a Prepping stand point. I think with homesteading, so much depends on what both you and your family would want. If the family is not wanting to farm for a living, or to live deep in the woods, that should be considered. Because I’ve seen that Homesteading show where family gets guilted into staying for their parents (adult children) or spouses give up their career to work on the farm (or, ha ha, the wife does the farm work while the husband works in the city so they have money). Yeah. Please don’t turn family into free labor for your fantasy life! However, if this is something everyone wants to work toward together, then go for it. I’d also get more than one land and water assessment, as some folks end up with bad land for farming or bad water for drinking, etc. 

I am in a city and I’m fine with that. I think if I went more rural, it would not be isolated rural. I would not mind something like a tiny home village/eco village, or something like that. Technically, I’m in a town close to the city (because it all blends together these days). And the farm I used to get my CSA box from, also was in a further out town close to the city. In fact, their neighbors ruined a lot of their crops one year due to pesticide blow over (another consideration for a make-a-living farm or a hobby farm).  They wanted to retire in two years, and this ruined their final years of farming for a living. They still had crops, but a huge portion could no longer be used for restaurants, CSAs, etc. 

The Virginia I-95 Highway situation (where cars were stuck there for 24-48 hours) in a snow storm, made me think about both winter travel, and how highways can get clogged up during an emergency (also seen in Ukraine now). Thankfully, I have about 3 levels of travel I can take to and from work. If you are in a city that is very highway oriented, thinking about travel patterns might be helpful for future emergencies.

Also, there is a man who died in Virginia because he thought he could leave his car and just walk home at night time. He actually was not far from his home, but he got lost and had little battery power left for his phone. He was found dead from exposure a day or two later. Over-estimating how good you are at something, or how easy something might be, can also be a problem for people. 

 

Erika, you seem very level-headed. I’ve heard many people express similar views and even though I wind up on the other end of the road (the dirt end, LOL) I agree completely.

Let me tell you, “A Homestead” is not the ultimate prep no matter how it sometimes sounds on these boards. Unless one dedicates themselves to self sufficiency and austerity it is just an expensive hobby.

People should prepare in ways that are suited to their inclinations, protect the life they want to lead, make them feel more secure—not dictate how or where they live. It is wasted effort fretting over others priorities, which is why I never read prepper things-to-buy lists. The gun guy is gonna want guns, the gardener her gardens, the chief cook his pantry, etc. That is as it should be. In the end the best prep is one you can utilize. The idea is to live long and prosper, not dig a foxhole and hide.

Country life isn’t for everyone in good times and certainly not in hard. Nowadays, a the pinnacle of civilization, things are tough and the country is emptying out, farms being bought up by investors a continent away. There’s lots of idle hands, drugs, crime and abuse among the folks who couldn’t or didn’t want to get out, it’s just more dispersed so not as noticeable.

A successful homestead is no mean feat even for the completely dedicated. An isolated rural location is certainly no panacea— during the civil war this rural area of the Ozarks was pretty well abandoned by people fleeing to the cities from bushwackers, regulators, jayhawkers, etc..

There are many downsides and pitfalls to the country not the least of which is income and opportunity cost. Given enough money one can live as low on the hog as they please, but making money is in direct opposition to grubbing in the muck unless one is city-adjacent —then what’s the point? Like most any lifestyle, homesteading comes with advantages and liabilities, just like ‘burbs or city centers. Again, for me the biggest is keeping one foot in the modern world and one in the dirt. And I’ve been fortunate enough to work remotely the last 25 years. There is just huge effort involved producing commodities worth a few dollars on the off chance they may not be available at some vague point in the future. It isn’t a weekend hobby.

The biggest mistake is to shoehorn oneself into a plan requiring a huge investment to which one is not suited, whether it is Rambo or Little House. I’m a small town / rural person and would be lost in the big city on a good day, so the relative benefits of the city really have no bearing on my decision where to live. I think that should go equally for city people.

 

I imagine that a homestead would be a lot of time, energy, and work. More than I have at the current moment. I try and do some homesteady activities like make a fire, grow a small garden, or can some food, but those are more of nice weekend hobbies and not a lifestyle I am able to give 100% of my time to. 

Cities are great, things are convenient, but I try to dabble in some of the other end to grow those skills and not be the helpless NYC businessman who has never lit a fire in his life (helpless in the way of homesteading and survival, he probably is not helpless at all in his trait and will make more money than I could ever hope to).

 

A homestead is defined as a home & property occupied by a family.  That’s it.  What you do on it is your business.  Do as much as you want and have the time, willingness & money for. 

For us, it simply started as a desire to live with our horses and no longer stable them.  That required acreage.   We looked for a minimum of ten acres, since we have four horses.  We were living in a suburb of Memphis but that much property was way too expensive there, so we looked further out.  We ended up with 20 acres about another 30 minutes outside that suburb.

When someone wonders what’s the point of having a homestead adjacent to a city, I just have to figure they just don’t get it.  A homestead is just your home on a bit of property.  You could have a homestead on a single acre… or less.  Yes, as a prepper, you would be safer from a mass exodus from the city if you lived way out in isolation, and that is a lifestyle for some.  I think many more will take the added risk & live closer to a city.

As a hobby and as a prepper, I choose to practice self sufficiency.  That is no different than the activities you currently do.  I have a small garden, do some canning, plant fruit trees and berries and maintain my property.  I too have a full time job and can’t devote anywhere near 100% of my time to homesteading.  But it is a lifestyle I love.   It is amazing how much one can do over time.  Each year, add a few fruit trees.  One year put in a blueberry patch.  Another year put in a pond & stock it with fish.  Another year, build a home shooting range.  After a few years, it might surprise you with all that you have and how easy it was to accomplish.  All these tasks end up making you better prepared and the sweat equity increases the value of your property.

 

You know, that is true. I can “homestead” however much I want in my own home and that is still homesteading. 

 

Exactly

 

I loved this quote “The idea is to live long and prosper, not dig a foxhole and hide.”

 

@HappySoul and OP and others on this thread–Although I don’t post or even visit this site often, it is IMO, the best “sane” site.   Had to laugh at M.E. Contributer below, “Will I be sad if I never get to use my titanium spork?  No.   Do I love being able to compare titanium sporks?? Absolutely!”

My niece and I enjoy the heck out of “comparing titanium sporks” and other stuff.   We do a lot of research before making a commitment.   We have spent the past 8-10 years adding to our gear/emergency food etc. as we had a little extra money here or there.   I’ve always planned multiple redundancies and we pretty much know that there will be extra people in addition to our own 6 in the family.    Unless it’s a wildfire, stay-in-place is our first/second/third option.  Bug-out or walking is waaaaay last.

It’s expensive to prep!   Even doing this over a decade and utilizing sales and dollar stores and Walmarts etc., I figure about $30,000 ($3,000/annually/$250 a month) has gotten us to the point that 6-10 people could function if all the lights went out/the water shut off/cars don’t run/ for 4-7 months without leaving our home.    $250 a month for 10 years for “insurance” is a lot!  To many of my family, friends, and neighbors, that would be a crazy amount to spend on stuff to prepare for something that we hope will never happen.  Prepping also takes a LOT of space!   For 6-10 people, it can suck up an entire 14’x14′ room.   

With all that said, we are all absolutely ok with the knowledge that a wildfire could wipe it all out in hours.   That’s why we have traditional home/auto/health insurance.    Being prepared mentally AND financially to leave BEFORE the s**t hits the fan means being safe.   It means we won’t fall into the normalcy bias mindset.  It means we won’t be caught in a traffic jam trying to evacuate, won’t be unable find a room when none are available (we can stay in the car if we have to), won’t be able to get cash when the banks are shut and ATM’s overwhelmed or have enough gas in our usually not less than half full cars.   

It is also wonderfully comforting to know that each family member (even those that think we’ve gone off the deep-end of prepping), can think outside-the-box and find the safest way regardless of what may happen.   That’s worth more than $250 a month for 10 years in my book.

 

I’m glad you have started posting.  I know where you are coming from.  Funny how folks think spending $250 a month on prepping is silly because it may never be used.  These same folks will not bat an eye at spending the same amount on home insurance, that odds are will never be used.  I’ve used my preps multiple times, including two separate multi-day power outages just in the last few months.  In all my life, I’ve never filed a claim on my home insurance.

The money I’ve spent on prepping doesn’t bother me in the least.  I personally never calculated per month but did rationalize my spending in that I don’t spend my extra money on women, booze, tobacco, drugs, fancy clothes, expensive cars and vacations.  I’m quite sure most “normal” people spend more on these such pursuits than I spend on prepping.

Much of my spending on prepping increased the value of my property, so it was not a “waste”.  Some expenses are a “waste” if not used within a few years, such as my stocks of garden seed.  Matter of fact, I’m currently working on filling a 6 gallon pail with fresh garden seed.  This seed could feed my family if I needed to be self sufficient.  I do this every year and will throw away my oldest garden seed that was never used.  That doesn’t make me sad & doesn’t make me an idiot.  It was simply money spent on insurance that was not used.

I will state I’m no longer considered eccentric or flaky because of my prepping.  The COVID pandemic and multiple power outages has changed the way my family sees me now.  When others were making & using homemade cloth masks, I had cases of n95 masks in storage.  When others were freezing in their homes & having to throw out all the food in their freezers, my mother in law stayed warm and all essential items were powered.

 

I definitely understand that feeling of wanting to ‘feel safe’ without knowing what you actually want, now more than ever before. I feel like moving to a homestead somewhere on the countryside because I feel like it’ll be safer, despite not knowing a d**n thing about farming. I also feel like my current home in the suburbs is a death sentence, even though preps can be done in any type of community.

Like, I feel like just packing up everything and moving to some farm somewhere away from the city or suburbia, but I know it’s just my anxiety talking. I mean, I’m a 21 year old with aspergers, no physical experience besides exercising, no direct financial income since I don’t have a job or even a side hustle, and not even a driver’s license. There are times where I curse being born into this kind of lifestyle.
And now talk of nuclear war is going on, far before I even begin to learn prepping skills. F**k me. That’s why I feel like moving to a farm despite knowing no family member that lives on one. Hell, I’ll probably die within the first year of homestead life since I know nothing.

 

My advice for you is to slow down and take a breather. No one knows what the future will hold. All this might blow over tomorrow and go away, we may live the next few years in another Cold War situation with the constant possible threat of nukes, or bombs might be dropping tomorrow. No one knows. What we can do though is to slow down and make rational decisions.

I can understand your desire to move to the countryside but that isn’t always the answer. If that is something you feel strongly about though, you could possibly hire on with an existing farmer and be a help for them. This will teach you many skills and allow you to live that lifestyle without being too involved where you have to make money or lose the farm.

Stay away from the news, because they like to get people all riled up, it makes them more money. 

Enjoy your life where you are living, prep the best you can, and look more into if moving more rural is the best decision for you.

 

Hi everyone just a few things to say about city versus homestead . we live on 5 acres and try to produce  what we can to eat and buy the rest no way would we try to be self sufficient . I really enjoy living away from the city but not to far it is about 30 mins drive.

having said that I have been reading a book by the co originator  of  permaculture David Holmgren called retro suburbia , in his book he talks about how most of the population live in the suburbs and how anyone can become more self reliant if they put there time and effort into it regardless are where they live. His 3 main reasons for this 

the collapse  of the finance and property bubble

climate change

energy decent [  oil gas  etc ]

The book is 592 pages of his and others years of experience and covers everything from growing fruit and veg , animals , firewood ,rainwater, money ,property ,community , solar power, and much more in a suburbia , it gives people the information of what to do where people live and have a more self reliant life stile ,  what ever happens in the future most people will still be living in town/city and will not be moving for one reason or another but can do a lot to help themselves , although the book is based around Victoria Australia it is easy to transfer onto where you live , I do not agree with everything he says but on the whole it is a mine of information well worth the read

All the best

John

 

Thank you for the book recommendation. It sounds like it covers pretty much everything you need to get started. 

His three reasons look to be pretty real threats to our society.

 

Good recommendation John! I haven’t bought this book, but there are sample chapters out there for folks to have a read to get a feel for the tone of the book.

I can also recommend a book called Milkwood, written by a couple who, I think, at one stage worked with David Holmgren on his permaculture farm. They also have a blog with hints on how to get started on permaculture living, one small project at a time.